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+--- Sujet : [Malte] Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - SOLTANA (/showthread.php?tid=5528)
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Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - SOLTANA - joshthom - 18-09-2021
Hello everyone,
I have been trying to search my direct paternal SULTANA / SOLTANA line back as far back as I can find evidence.
The furthest evidence I have found of a marriage is in the ADAMI archives, which records the marriage of Giovanni SOLTANA (from Gozo) and Margarita MINTUF on the 07/10/1629 in Porto Salvo Parish (Valetta) (attached below).
The marriage record lists the parents of Giovanni as Nicolo SOLTANA and Giulia, and the parents of Margarita as Giulio MINTUF and Gioannella.
Now from here is where I try to separate FACT from FICTION.
Numerous sites state that Nicolo's original surname was SAGONA, and that he changed it to SOLTANA as part of the deal in marriage (such as maltageneaology.com).
Furthermore, some sites state that Giulia's father was a former African slave named Antonio MICALLEF. It appears that there is a death record for an Antonio in the GM on the 02/01/1617 in Rabat-Gozo (also attached below). I also see that NSV and Mr Georges have commented on this individual in a previous forum post.
My question is from where could I possibly look to verify this? I will try to search for further marriages in the ADAMI Archives. The claims regarding the Marriage of Nicolo SOLTANA (SAGONA?) And Giulia seem to be based on the previously mentioned marriage deal. Surely this seems too specific to be a modern fabrication, or perhaps I am giving maltageneaology.com the benefit of the doubt?
Looks,
Joshua sultana
RE: Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - Gander Georges - 18-09-2021
HI Joshua,
Give us time for a solid answer. In the meantime, attached is a SULTANA's tree establish by the Genealogist LANFRANCO
RE: Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - joshthom - 19-09-2021
Thank you and I keenly await your responses on this matter.
I see that Georges has cited "Livre d'Or de Malta" as a source on this page: https://gw.geneanet.org/ganderge?lang=fr&iz=7075&i=4174
Is this were you found evidence of the marriage deal?
Regards,
Joshua Sultana
RE: Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - Gander Georges - 19-09-2021
Hello to all,
Joshua:
Yes, I did mention the "Golden Book" as a source. But, you should know that I never use this site, except for this particular case, because my friend Godfrey SULTANA was at the origin of the SULTANA-SAGONA study. Therefore, to be accurate, my source is Godfrey and not The Golden Book.
Godfrey should soon share with us the elements of his study.
RE: Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - Godfrey Sultana - 20-09-2021
The Soltana/Sultana family connection to the Seguna/Saguna/Savona family .
I started looking at my Sultana ancestors back in the mid-80's and being in Australia since 1964 did not manage to get very far. In April 1990 I went to Malta for six weeks and spent most of the daytime searching at the Public Registry, talking to relatives and even met in person Chevalier Carmelo Meli at his residence in St Paul Street, Valletta who was an accredited genealogist and I was actually referred to him by the Public Registry. From then on I have spent years of my time researching my ancestors, because ALL Sultanas link up to Nicola Soltana and Gulia ...
When I first started looking at the Adami Collection Nicola Soltana was actually entered as Nicola Seguna, Seguna was crossed off and Soltana was entered on top of it (some time later). I accepted the explanation that it was a transcription error by Goffredo Adami. Then I realised that his son Pietro was entered by Adami also as Seguna. Was it also a transcription error? Pietro's entry was never corrected to my knowledge.
For years I dismissed the Seguna anomaly and concentrated on the Soltana/Sultana lines to the present day. In June 2009, Professor Charles Savona Ventura ran into a problem with his Savona line. He had Nicola Seguna/Saguna/Sagona married to a Gulia and could not move forward. It struck me odd that I have a Nicola Soltana and a Gulia and the professor had a Nicola Seguna and a Gulia and then remembered that Adami originally had Nicola Seguna and later someone crossed off Seguna and replaced it with Soltana. I sent off an email to Charles Said Vassallo of Libro D'Oro and told him of the coincidence. Within hours there was an update to the Sultana Family Research on Libro D'Oro and I quote: "28 June 2009: Major UPDATE regarding the Origins of SULTANA with the discovery of surname conflict discovered by Godfrey Sultana, and further research discovery have found that the majority of descendants in the Male line are of the Saguna line. Though Sultana name carried through due to a legacy from a grandfather which carried the name and lands given by the Grand Master of Malta to survive in the 16th century". When I questioned where is the source, I was told it was a Notarial Act which was in a private collection. Others have questioned Charles Said Vassallo and I believe got a similar reply.
It is interesting to note that Professor Charles Savona Ventura accepted CSV's explanation and promptly updated his detailed Family Tree to incorporate this "new" Soltana/Sultana connection. Personally I am still searching for some notarial evidence before I will accept CSV's account of the change of surname by Nicola Seguna to Nicola Soltana in order for his wife to keep the lands donated by the Grand Master de Homedes to Giulia's ancestors. Something this important had to be legally recorded through a notary to be effective.
DNA Results:
Back in July 2017 I uploaded my raw data to Stephen Asciak of Malta DNA and Genealogy and this is what he said:
Interesting result for a friend, who is a "SULTANA". I ran through his Ancestry.com raw data, and their paternal line is most likely under ydna haplogroup I2a2. This is indicative of a Germanic origin ... but in terms of Malta, I would say, based on knowing the Sultana/Soltana time frame in Malta from records, I would attribute this individual paternal line connection with Genoese/Germanic origin. This is not saying that the Sultana name itself is of Genoese origin, but that this persons ancestral paternal line indicates this origin. Another Sultana may show a different result. In a further statement Stephen said " .... maybe this individual has a break in his paternal line, where a son took his mother's name and the father was not a Sultana ...."
Personally I know very little about DNA so I am not going to put any interpretation on Stephen's remarks although I think I know what he is trying to say.
Interestingly enough, Prof Charles Savona Ventura also did a DNA and according to MyHeritage.com Charles is my 1st cousin twice removed and/or my 4th cousin (Shared DNA 1.1% (80.8 cM)). Charles has very little information on MyHeritage so I have no idea how we connect through DNA. From the paper trail, Charles Savona Ventura is a very distant cousin, 10th cousin or more, so this DNA connection must be through one of the other peripheral lines and not through the direct line.
Joshua Sultana also connects with me on MyHeritage.com and is a 3 cousin-distant cousin (Shared DNA 0.2% (15.4 cM)).
Conclusion: Without any tangible proof of the story in Libro D'Oro (Malta Genealogy) I will accept the fact that I can only go as far as Nicola Soltana and Giulia ....
Godfrey Sultana
Sydney NSW, Australia
Email: godfrey_sultana@yahoo.com
20 September 2021
RE: Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - Gander Georges - 20-09-2021
Thanks Godfrey for your pertinent, precise and comprehensive contribution.
RE: Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - joshthom - 21-09-2021
Hi all,
Thank you Godfrey for your detailed explanation. I wonder how CSV could have come into possession of such notarial acts...
Interestingly enough, my paternal haplogroup is also l2a2 based on my raw DNA data.
RE: Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - Gander Georges - 21-09-2021
Bonjour à tous,
Ci-dessous la réponse, en français de Godfrey SULTANA (traduction par DeepL) :
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Le lien entre la famille Soltana/Sultana et la famille Seguna/Saguna/Savona .
J'ai commencé à chercher mes ancêtres Sultana au milieu des années 80 et, étant en Australie depuis 1964, je n'ai pas réussi à aller très loin. En avril 1990, je suis allée à Malte pendant six semaines et j'ai passé la plupart de mes journées à faire des recherches au Registre public, à parler à des parents et j'ai même rencontré en personne le Chevalier Carmelo Meli à sa résidence de St Paul Street, à La Valette, qui était un généalogiste accrédité et qui m'avait été recommandé par le Registre public. Depuis lors, j'ai passé des années à rechercher mes ancêtres, car TOUS les Sultana sont liés à Nicola Soltana et Gulia...
Lorsque j'ai commencé à consulter la collection Adami, Nicola Soltana était en fait inscrit sous le nom de Nicola Seguna, Seguna a été rayé et Soltana a été inscrit par-dessus (quelque temps après). J'ai accepté l'explication selon laquelle il s'agissait d'une erreur de transcription de Goffredo Adami. Puis je me suis rendu compte que son fils Pietro était inscrit par Adami également comme Seguna. S'agissait-il également d'une erreur de transcription ? A ma connaissance, l'inscription de Pietro n'a jamais été corrigée.
Pendant des années, j'ai écarté l'anomalie Seguna et me suis concentré sur les lignées Soltana/Sultana jusqu'à aujourd'hui. En juin 2009, le professeur Charles Savona Ventura a rencontré un problème avec sa lignée Savona. Il avait Nicola Seguna/Saguna/Sagona marié à une Gulia et ne pouvait pas avancer. J'ai trouvé étrange que j'aie un Nicola Soltana et une Gulia et que le professeur ait un Nicola Seguna et une Gulia, puis je me suis souvenu qu'Adami avait à l'origine Nicola Seguna et que plus tard quelqu'un avait rayé Seguna et l'avait remplacé par Soltana. J'ai envoyé un courriel à Charles Said Vassallo du Libro D'Oro pour lui faire part de cette coïncidence. En quelques heures, il y a eu une mise à jour de la recherche de la famille Sultana sur Libro D'Oro et je cite : "28 juin 2009 : Mise à jour majeure concernant les origines de SULTANA avec la découverte d'un conflit de nom de famille découvert par Godfrey Sultana, et d'autres recherches ont permis de découvrir que la majorité des descendants de la lignée masculine sont de la lignée Saguna. Bien que le nom de Sultana ait survécu grâce à l'héritage d'un grand-père qui a porté le nom et les terres données par le Grand Maître de Malte pour survivre au 16ème siècle". Lorsque j'ai demandé où était la source, on m'a répondu qu'il s'agissait d'un acte notarié qui se trouvait dans une collection privée. D'autres ont interrogé Charles Said Vassallo et je crois avoir obtenu une réponse similaire.
Il est intéressant de noter que le professeur Charles Savona Ventura a accepté l'explication de CSV et a rapidement mis à jour son arbre généalogique détaillé pour y intégrer cette "nouvelle" connexion Soltana/Sultana. Personnellement, je suis toujours à la recherche de preuves notariales avant d'accepter le récit de CSV concernant le changement de nom de famille de Nicola Seguna en Nicola Soltana afin que sa femme puisse conserver les terres données par le Grand Maître de Homedes aux ancêtres de Giulia. Une chose aussi importante devait être légalement enregistrée par un notaire pour être effective.
Résultats ADN :
En juillet 2017, j'ai téléchargé mes données brutes à Stephen Asciak de Malta DNA and Genealogy et voici ce qu'il a dit :
Un résultat intéressant pour un ami, qui est un "SULTANA". J'ai parcouru ses données brutes Ancestry.com, et leur lignée paternelle est très probablement sous l'haplogroupe ydna I2a2. Cela indique une origine germanique ... mais en ce qui concerne Malte, je dirais, en me basant sur la connaissance de la période Sultana/Soltana à Malte à partir de documents, que j'attribuerais la connexion de la ligne paternelle de cet individu à une origine génoise/germanique. Cela ne veut pas dire que le nom Sultana lui-même est d'origine génoise, mais que la lignée paternelle ancestrale de cette personne indique cette origine. Une autre Sultana pourrait donner un résultat différent.
Personnellement, je ne connais que très peu l'ADN et je ne vais donc pas interpréter les propos de Stephen, même si je pense savoir ce qu'il essaie de dire.
Il est intéressant de noter que le professeur Charles Savona Ventura a également effectué un test ADN et que, selon MyHeritage.com, Charles est mon cousin germain deux fois enlevé et/ou mon cousin germain. Charles a très peu d'informations sur MyHeritage et je n'ai donc aucune idée de la façon dont nous sommes liés par l'ADN. D'après les traces écrites, Charles Savona Ventura est un cousin très éloigné, 10e cousin ou plus, donc cette connexion ADN doit se faire par l'une des autres lignes périphériques et non par la ligne directe.
Conclusion : Sans preuve tangible de l'histoire du Libro D'Oro (Malta Genealogy), j'accepterai le fait que je ne peux pas aller plus loin que Nicola Soltana et Giulia .....
Godfrey Sultana
Sydney NSW, Australie
Courriel : godfrey_sultana@yahoo.com
20 septembre 2021
Traduit avec www.DeepL.com/Translator (version gratuite)
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RE: Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - SOLTANA - NSV - 24-09-2021
(21-09-2021, 02:57)joshthom a écrit : Hi all,
Thank you Godfrey for your detailed explanation. I wonder how CSV could have come into possession of such notarial acts...
Interestingly enough, my paternal haplogroup is also l2a2 based on my raw DNA data.
He hasn't.
RE: Question regarding standard of proof for genealogy - angelas21 - 27-09-2021
(21-09-2021, 02:57)joshthom a écrit : Hi all,
Thank you Godfrey for your detailed explanation. I wonder how CSV could have come into possession of such notarial acts...
Interestingly enough, my paternal haplogroup is also l2a2 based on my raw DNA data.
Wow my father’s paternal haplogroup is also I2a2. Not a Sultana though. Absolutely fascinating, I wonder how common this haplogroup is in the wider Maltese population!
A bit off topic, sorry about that.